The Unwitting Perpetration and Perpetuation of Racism
“The conventional depictions of historical icons always reflect the prejudices of the predominant culture of the period. What is remarkable is that we are now conscious of this when before times we weren’t.”
—–Alan Milner
Iconic images reflect prejudices and beliefs that are so deeply ingrained in our society and culture that they can elicit an unconscious or subliminal, involuntary, reflexive response….Use of such images reinforces, reaffirms, and reasserts the underlying message…
Which image do you think Alan chose to represent the nature and purpose of the BindleSnitch “Musician’s Page”?
By selecting the stylized Aryan portrait of Beethoven, Alan has clearly contradicted himself and become an unintentional, subconscious perpetrator and perpetuator of racism…
This kind of thing happens all the time…everywhere….
And I’m sure to catch hell for calling it out here…
07/20/2019 @ 1:03 pm
If I wasn’t one of them heathen atheists, I add all of the pictures of of the only guy born in the Middle East that had blonde hair, blue eyes and who looked like he’d just finished cooking a killer batch of meth in a Florida trailer park.
https://www.landoverbaptist.net/showthread.php?t=36788
(Don’t even get me started on how ‘ol Joe and Mary planned on hiding a blonde, blue eyed kid in Egypt).
https://me.me/i/when-jesus-hid-in-egypt-279e529609244346ae6c730c134f03cc
11/01/2019 @ 8:59 am
But would a guy in a Florida trailer park have a tan?
07/20/2019 @ 1:47 pm
I have wondered what is the evidence for LvB having been of African descent.
07/20/2019 @ 1:54 pm
If the paintings aren’t enough…Do some reading…
My original post was quite detailed and extensive…
07/20/2019 @ 2:57 pm
If you will allow that racism is a moral crime, if at all, rather than an ethical one, is it possible to unwittingly or subconsciously transgress ethically? Is it not necessary to be consciously intending the harm for the crime of racism to occur?
Whether thought or deed, racism is easily a moral failing. But, does it not require context to be an ethical crime? If you employ a Visigoth in your office, and you suggest that they go back where they come from, by US law, you have certainly committed a crime. But, if you are at a private backyard party, and you say to the Visigoth, “I hate f’n Visigoths”, is there a crime? Or, if you present a picture of a known Visigoth, and he is depicted as a Pict, is that ethically wrong, or just morally?
07/20/2019 @ 4:24 pm
To be clear, I have always offered extra coleslaw to Visigoths at my BBQs.
07/20/2019 @ 5:04 pm
IMO, it most certainly is possible to be “unintentionally” racist (whether you call it “moral or “ethical” is actually kind of moot).
For example, asking a Black chick if you can touch her hair to see if it’s “soft” (this happen to my first girlfriend a LOT) or telling a Black man on the beach how cool you think it is that he won’t sunburn (which happened to an associate of mine). Both of those things are racist.
Intentionally hurtful or not, singling out a person because of their RACE is inherently racist, as far as I see it anyways.
07/20/2019 @ 5:48 pm
“…It most certainly is possible to be “unintentionally” racist…”
Amy, I would state the case as follows:
It is possible to unintentionally perpetrate and/or perpetuate racism, without being. a racist.
A racist , by definition, is someone who, at the very least, is aware of his/her posture or perspective re the adherence to racism and expresses or maintains a concomitant attitude re his/her belief or point of view on the matter of race…
07/20/2019 @ 10:46 pm
Maybe so. I might just be reacting to Pelosi’s defacto mouthpiece saying this:
“.@SpeakerPelosi clarified today she is not calling Trump a racist, she is calling Trump’s words racist.”
(BTW, the comments are GREAT!)
07/20/2019 @ 7:31 pm
I agree that it is possible to do something that most would describe as racist unintentionally. That was not my question though.
My question focuses mainly on the uses of the words perpetrator and perpetuator. Perpetuating something can clearly be done without intent. A baby could reach out to grasp hair, wondering about its texture, but not be perpetrating anything.
Perpetration is sticky because it practically means commission of a crime. It doesn’t absolutely, but in this context, and taken with perpetuation, the ground of continuing something is adequately covered. I inferred the meaning of transgression, and for racism, that is also difficult ground.
With racism, we are talking about a concept which exists entirely in the mind, which is free from ethical crime. Moral transgression within the mind is certainly possible, but one is free to think whatever one chooses, according to the law.
That is why perpetration of a concept requires the added context of, usually, some sort of action, and a written law prohibiting it.
Perpetuation and perpetration share a similar difference qualitatively as general intent and specific intent crimes. General intent transgression can result from sloppiness or lack of care, lacking the intent of the result. Specific intent requires the intent for the specific result. Is the difference between sloppiness and malicious intent relevant? I’d say, yes.
07/20/2019 @ 10:49 pm
“I agree that it is possible to do something that most would describe as racist unintentionally.”
I use the word “perpetrate” in a the broad sense of “doing something”which may subsequently be characterized as wrong or even a crime…
Your attempt to constrict the terminology and limit it to ‘crime drama lingo’ is not my application here…
Amy has this right. People do and say thingsc daily or on a regular recurring basis that are wrong because what they do/say may be construed as racist without their knowledge, awarenes, or intention…
We usually can chalk such occurrences up to ignorance and insensitivity…
EXAMPLE:
Joe Biden recently apologized for waxing nostalgic about his having worked with overtly racist senators..
Biden is not a racist nor did he intend to perpetrate or perpetuate racism in his remarks…But he did…
07/21/2019 @ 5:39 am
I don’t recall using the phrase “crime drama lingo.” I wasn’t quite sure what you meant by that at first. I believe I explained my inference. Given the use with “perpetuate”, it seemed more like poetic alteration than meaningful about a very serious allegation.
An interesting question was repeated twice. Where is the evidence about Beethoven being black, Moorish, descended from Moors. While I have heard these statements for many years, took them for granted, this question caused me to look for the proof. I could not find any. Maybe you have some.
It leaves me curious. If Beethoven can not be proved to be black, is Milner still perpetrating racism?
07/21/2019 @ 6:15 am
The question isn’t, “‘where is the evidenc.e?””, but “what is the evidence?”
The evidence is scant to nearly nonexistent as the case would be with many offspring of dubious lineage…
Much of what does exist contemporaneous with the paintings and anecdotal in nature…
Recollections of conversations and various letters and notes…
One of the problems is that there is precious little info about his mother’s heritage or lineage other than the fact that she was from a European location that had been occupied and controlled by Moors…
“If Beethoven can not be proved to be black, is Milner still perpetrating racism?”
Only to the extent that someone wanted to obfuscate the fact that Beethoven may not have been white…
Keep in mind the contradiction referenced in this post…
Beethoven’s iconic likeness is used today in a manner not inconsistent with the (racist) reasons for which his likeness has been given a whitewash over time….
07/20/2019 @ 6:39 pm
My question is Jon’s question. In the discussion about Beethoven it always has been. Painting the guy to look more “ideal” German was certainly disrespectful to whatever his actual background was but I haven’t seen evidence from his family background indicating a strong probability of African ancestry. If that turns up, great, we’ll have another great Black musician in our history. But it hasn’t thus far and, having not turned up, it isn’t racist to ask for a stronger case. I really don’t care if Beethoven was Black or White; the quality of his music is exceptional either way. Germans might care because they’re nationally proud of him but from my standpoint, what do I care if he was another great German musician/composer or another great Black musician/composer? I listen to both. I don’t identify ethnically with either.
07/20/2019 @ 7:55 pm
It doesn’t matter whether or not YOU care.
Look at the array of paintings and sketches , and it should be readily apparent that SOMEBODY cared enough to whitewash Beethoven’s likenesses…
The painting in this post that shows a modicum of pigmentation is the painting that Beethoven himself preferred, so much so that he would give miniatures of the piece as gifts to close friends.
It has been alleged that his mother was a Moor or, a Moor of the half blood…
In any event, the visual evidence should be clear and convincing enough to assert that there has been sufficient meddling with images of Beethoven’s appearance to raise doubts about the accuracy, efficacy, and legitimacy of the iconic image.
https://www.google.com/search?q=beethovens+african+heritage&oq=b&aqs=chrome.2.69i60l2j69i59j69i60l3.1939j0j4&client=ms-android-tmus-us-revc&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
My original post was quite detailed and extensive…Complete with links, citations etc…
Besides the point of the post is not Beethoven’s heritage per se but rather the idea that It is quite possible for a non-racist to unintentionally or unwittingly perpetrate or perpetuate racism…
Amy gets it…
Your comment suggests that either you don’t, or refuse, to “get it”.
Read the post again and respond to what is there, not what you think is or isn’t there…
I stated that Alan contradicted himself by using the stylized Aryan image of Beethoven…
How about responding to that….
07/20/2019 @ 11:52 pm
I doubt Alan read your original post and so I doubt he was aware that the version of Beethoven he published was altered. I read your original post and the ancestral evidence was mainly conjecture. If it hadn’t been, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. In terms of the Whitewashing of Beethoven’s image, I did acknowledge that in my comment. He was clearly darker than eventually painted and his nose was more rounded. What I think Alan did was look up Beethoven and publish what came up.
07/21/2019 @ 6:29 am
“…[I]t has been alleged that his mother was a Moor or.a Moor of the half blood…” –Ron Powell
Let us say that evidence eventually arrives to validate this claim. With that in evidence, and 50% being the highest watermark of Beethoven’s blackness, if you will, who is to say that he is black?
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/in-the-eye-the-beholder/201104/the-one-drop-rule-how-black-is-black
This article in Psychology Today (not TV Guide) has some interesting points. First,
“regardless of the legal definitions for race membership, there are subjective, psychological definitions that people carry around with them.”
And then the more complex idea. The complex aspect begins with the 6th paragraph of the article. The “one drop” rule, I think we would agree, is a racist premise. Your anecdotal evidence places Beethoven at a maximum of 50%. So, is an Aryan stylized version making him into something he is not any more than a more pigmented version is? Keep in mind, these are not photos. Also, your anecdotal evidence includes the possibility of Beethoven being as little as 25% Moor.
Isn’t the “one drop” metric a stronger perpetuation of racism than a painted portrait?
07/21/2019 @ 7:09 am
Barack Obama is identified as the first black president and yet he is only 50% black…To use your approach that might not be enough to be hailed as “black”.
Kamala Harris isnt even African American yet she identifies as black.
Duchess Meghan doesn’t even look black by many measures , yet she’s the black American woman now a member of the Royal Family….
If Beethoven wasn’t black, why the apparent need to alter his appearance so much so that he couldn’t even be seen as black in error?
07/21/2019 @ 7:25 am
Ron, you have greatly misread my statement. With that, you have greatly misread how such a metric is used.
I did not say that I say. I said, “who is to say.” Now, Obama calls himself black based upon whatever he choses, and presumably what he knows about his heritage. I defer to his determination about himself.
Duchess Meghan refers to herself as black based upon whatever she choses, and presumably her knowledge of her heritage. I do not declare it for her. These are not my metrics, they are theirs.
The “one drop” rule is not a person, but a racist metric. I am not referring to a person, nor am I overriding anyone’s self determination by making reference to this historical metric. It is not my metric, it predates me by centuries.
Now, this discussion of what or who Beethoven is does not include his statement. It has assumptions based upon assumptions about his mother…and a metric (not mine) from history that would, at most, make Beethoven 50% Moor.
Without Beethoven’s own statement about himself, utterly different from the examples of Obama and Sussex (née Markle), who make their own, this assessment of Beethoven must be made by the data.
The data says 50% at most. I said…”who is to say?” I did not say, I say.
07/21/2019 @ 11:27 am
Beethoven’s heritage is not an open and shut case…For purposes of this post whether Beethoven was black or white is not the issue…
The issue is the racist attempt to make him appear to be white without question…
It’s the ‘whitewash’ and the motivation for it that is the central theme here…
http://theconcordian.org/2015/02/19/beethoven-may-have-been-african-american
07/21/2019 @ 12:15 pm
Ah, so…this acknowledges that I did not declare Obama, Sussex, or Harris to not be black by my “approach.” The sloppy nature with which it accuses, fails to recognize deference to the record of self determination, and then abandons the angle, gives the whiff of perpetuation of something…if not perpetration.
I’m glad that has been cleared up.
As for the “whitewash” of Western Civ, I don’t dispute it. I don’t think it is in dispute. I confess that I don’t know Alan Milner. He may be whitening everything from Beethoven, to BindleSnitch, to his bicuspids. I certainly hope not, but…who’s to say?
07/22/2019 @ 12:12 pm
Self identification isn’t always acknowledged or accepted as accurate, appropriate, or legitimate.
Black people who self identified as white did so at their peril.
Black people who engaged in ‘passing for white’ did so at tremendous risk to life and limb. Being caught or discovered often meant certain, if not instant, death…
07/22/2019 @ 12:33 pm
Holy Red Herring, Batman! You offered 3 examples of people of mixed heritage who self identify as black. I acknowledge that I defer to their right to do so. You offered those to challenge an assumption about an individual of mixed heritage from whom we do not have a statement about how they identify. Those are all known knowns.
Then, you counter the concept of self identification as a premise in my analysis, but using the case where they are doing so fraudulently…albeit generally. (To challenge this case, we still do not have Beethoven’s statement about self identity. At best it is irrelevant.)
A contemporary example of this sort of fraudulent self identification would be Rachel Dolezal. A good case can be made for how this sort of self identification is detrimental to all. I also do not see this sort of case as relevant in this context. Obama, Harris, and Sussex are all legitimately biracial, all openly identify as black, and thus deference to their accurate self assessment can not be impugned. Can it?
07/25/2019 @ 10:54 am
“….legitimately biracial”…?
How is someone illegitimately biracial?
Re “passing for white”
“…the case where they are doing so fraudulently….”
Why is it fraud when a person whose complexion is light enough to be able to be classified and identified as “white” chooses to do so despite his/her black ancestry, heritage, or kinship…
That smacks of the drop of blood or 1/16th rule you mentioned…
The “fraud” lies in denying anyone the right to self -determination…
07/25/2019 @ 11:07 am
Legitimately would be consistent with what they know to be the truth about themselves.
Fraudulently would be inconsistent with what they know to be true about themselves.
As for the drop of blood rule…no, it doesn’t. Not even slightly.
Everyone does have the right to self determination. And as long as your statement about yourself does not use the common property of language, and the common practice of its use with others, and the common understanding of what words within that language mean, then the individual is free to use a quarantined definition that states 2+2=banana.
However, if the person seeks to use that commonly owned thing, among other owners of that thing, they agree to the commonly held meanings and values contained within. To individually change a value or meaning that is commonly known to be different is only to deceive when it is done consciously. That is outside of the realm of self determination.
07/21/2019 @ 11:56 am
Here’s what we have to go on:
We know that Beethoven had a darker complexion than your average German or Austrian and we know that his nose was more rounded. We do not know what in his ancestry led to these features as there are a lot of people with dark complexions in Southern Europe (see Amy’s self-description) and North Africa (Arab).
We know that a famous portrait of Beethoven, the one Alan used, alters these two aspects of Beethoven’s appearance. We can presume the artist intended these alterations to be flattering, which makes sense given among whom they were, and that “flattering” in this case entails the rejection of another cultural/ethnic aesthetic.
We know that Beethoven gave away copies of his own likeness and the image he chose to use was an accurate one rather than the altered one, so we can assume he didn’t endorse the alterations.
That’s pretty much all we have. Racism? We have no way of being sure race is involved, only a standard of beauty with presumably some ethnic components.
There are so many grievances where we are positive race is involved that I question the wisdom of concentrating on this one, which has been my position for as long as you/Ron have/has been posting about this topic.
This is an answer about the post, though it is a tangent to the current conversation about defining Black, to which I have nothing to add at this moment. (Give me a few minutes and that may change.)
07/21/2019 @ 12:45 pm
I don’t doubt that Beethoven preferred one portrait over the other, but do we know that? Do we know that he had access to the one which he did not distribute? Did they both exist while Beethoven was handing out portraits?
07/21/2019 @ 4:42 pm
I just took Ron’s word for that. That’s a question for him to field.
07/22/2019 @ 7:20 am
“…only a standard of beauty with presumably some ethnic components.”
If the Western European “standard of beauty” isn’t a reflection of pervasive and persistent racism there is no such animal…
This is precisely my point.
The conscious effort to reject, dismiss, ignore, obfuscate, and/or eliminate physical features that made Beethoven appear to be anything other than white is/was a reflection of the racism that existed then and the racism that persists to this day…
Use of the iAryan mage of Beethoven here makes Alan an unintentional, and unwitting , subconscious perpetrator and perpetuator of the racism and the racist message re the ‘whitewash’ of Beethoven’s image…
But that doesn’t make Alan a racist…
This kind of thing happens all the time…everywhere….
Pushing back against the use of iconic stereotypes and images that convey stereotypical messages will be met withr resistance and denial not unlike that which is happening here…
Amy ‘gets it’…
The fact that you can’t, don’t, or won’t is on you.
07/22/2019 @ 7:33 am
Oh I get it, I just don’t assume race is the issue per se because the ethnic differences in question may be more minor than what we currently classify as race. That the differences are racial is exactly what we haven’t established.
That a people want to make someone they idolize appear more like them is normal. Let’s use Beethoven as an example in a different context. If you look at some sheet music, you will see Beethoven referred to as von Beethoven rather than the factually correct van Beethoven. Why? Because von indicated German nobility while the van indicated Dutch nobility and German nobility was a bigger deal in that time and place. Would you classify that as racist? Why or why not?
07/22/2019 @ 7:37 am
I would characterize the practice you describe as ‘classist’. You have given the rationale for that…