Its How You Said It
By now, everyone has seen the three Ivy League university presidents being grilled by New York’s Elise Stefanik last week in a congressional hearing before the House Education and Workforce committee on anti-semitism. University of Pennsylvania President Liz Magill, Harvard University President Claudine Gay, and MIT President Sally Kornbluth failed a public relations test when their answers were examined and found to be lacking.
As I consider the debacle that this piece of news is, I am disappointed in all directions. First, I am disappointed with how these three Presidents handled their testimonies. They should have been better prepared, and they should have been able to think on their feet better than they apparently did, but frankly, that is the least disappointing of the three parts of this controversy.
A bit more disappointing than that is how the general public is swallowing this bit of reporting without evaluating what is really important. Anti-semitism is a serious thing. That hardly needs to be said, and I am opposed to it. It has no place in public or private life. It is an increasing problem on university campuses, but…what these Presidents did was not anti-semitism. They were not even exacerbating this problem with their testimonies. What they did could fairly be described as a tepid, legalistic response(s) to a serious, hot-button issue. Faux pas, definitely. Malfeasance, no.
Controversies about public statements can develop and play out in at least a couple of ways. There are the most common type which involve someone saying something which goes beyond the boundaries of appropriate, correct, or polite behavior like using racial epithets, or issuing threats, etc. It is fair to call this type of statement made publicly, conduct. Then there are cases like this one involving the three Presidents. Here, they under-expressed a sentiment which would match the public’s appropriate level of outrage about the conduct of others, currently taking place. Their statements involve their positions on existing policy, which is the basis from which the criticism of their tepid response was formed. In other words, the complaint by Stefanik was not the policy(s). The complaint was about how an opinion was worded about actions taken in consideration of these policies.
What’s worse, these administrators were not out campaigning on the issue. They were called to respond to the issue. They were not suggesting that their apparently mild approaches be adopted by anyone. They were responding to questions raised by others in a way deemed insufficiently assertive.
The third area that I find disappointing about this issue is how practically all news outlets are reporting this. Practically every opinion writer I have seen is joining in the stream of outrage about their lack of intensity. At the very least, the media should be saying that the Presidents are not doing the anti-semitic thing. Are the Presidents deserving of correction? Absolutely. Should they be fired or asked to resign? Absolutely not. So far, Liz Magill has tendered her resignation. She will continue as a professor at Penn, however. Clearly, she was given a choice to make that move, and stay on the faculty, or be fired. Claudine Gay appears to be next, although many from the Harvard faculty are writing letters in her support. I’ve seen no news yet on the MIT President.
I am disappointed that we are placing much more weight on how something is being said, rather than what is actually said. I lean heavily in the other direction on this question, while agreeing fully with the other values of the matter. It’s not what you say that matters, it is how you say it. And that is a shame.
12/11/2023 @ 12:52 pm
100%. A couple of additional points worth mentioning:
Harvard alum Elise Stefanik was unceremoniously dropped from Harvard’s advisory board after she voted against certifying Biden’s electoral win, so long time axe, grinding, long time teeth, biting the food hand.
In Boston academic communities, students and faculty are not squawking about this. Classes just ended, reviews and exams are happening. It’s the media and the general public that are getting hot over it.
Hiring credentials for college presidents aren’t the same as they are for faculty. Strong fundraising experience and excellence at public relations are the most important qualifications. Can you spin us? Can you get those sweet sweet six figure new building grants? Can you deal with unruly resistant faculty unions? Can you woo the one percent and btw, do you look good in designer clothes? Can you walk, talk, and chew gum on the razor’s edge?
Larry Tribe’s reasoning for signing the Harvard faculty letter that protests the calls for Pres. Gay’s resignation was solid. Tribe said although he wished she’d spoken less ambiguously abt campus anti-semitism, he is more concerned abt government demands that academia fire her, as well as two other college presidents. Look at what is happening in Florida higher ed for a dark preview.
Re: skill w/words on the other side. My old gut says Elise Stefanik was selected for her Harvard alum status, plus righteous outrage acting skill to ask those questions. Right wing maga has been watching carefully, for a long time, for something to hang on higher ed, and if it hadn’t have been this, it would be something else. They are scary good at it.
12/11/2023 @ 1:01 pm
Right. I presume, without having been told, that the $100 Million dollar question hanging over the Penn President’s neck was the real issue. Well, let me restate that. The issue is real. Penn’s vulnerability is the money. I get it. And stating it that way would be one thing. My problem is the way it is being discussed. Clearly Penn has made the information available for everyone else to come to the conclusion that they want, but they are not saying it.
They are also not saying that as private institutions, they do not have the 1st amendment issue that the press and the public think that it is. Their policy can be whatever they want it to be…were they not concerned with competition for talent and money. And beyond that, there over use of restriction of speech previously, in various ways, contributes as much to the problem as anything.
Hanging goat horns on these three women, in my view, is a travesty.
And, oh, by the way, Stefanik used a trap to get them to say things to make it appear that it was something that it wasn’t. Stefanik anchored the question on “calling for genocide”. That’s where I walked into the room when my wife was watching the news, and I thought, I’d like to know what led to this. Clearly the protesting students were not saying…’genocide yes’! As it turned out, they had said something that Stefanik was equating to calling for genocide…with interpretation. This was a dishonest tactic by Stefanik. The press should have reported it that way. Right now, millions of people think that these students were “calling for genocide”. Words matter, and genocide wasn’t one of them.
12/11/2023 @ 3:04 pm
Students were chanting ‘from the river to the sea’, a Palestinian resistance phrase, a demand that Gaza and Israel belong to them. The G word, although silent, is there.
The NYTimes ran a deep dive article into Penn politics, which is really informative: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/11/us/upenn-president-liz-magill-antisemitism.html
Dropping the veil a little, my former hub is a department and endowed chair at Penn, thirty years. We’ve compared tales of academic politics, he always wins, by a lot. Penn has a giant endowment, and endowments are gobbling engines. The Times article gets into that, the power of wealthy donors and alums to drive academic politics. Same at Harvard and MIT.
All three presidents selected by the committee were smart intelligent attractive liberal women, academics, not PR heads or politicians. Academic politics, ever present, always annoying are not the same as government politics, more like hoops to be jumped through than court trials. I’m guessing they had no idea what lay in store for them. Also, why no male college presidents? Pres of Yale and Princeton are male. They were unavailable? Or did the committee think women would wilt under aggressive questioning and appeal to GOP misogynist lust? I think you know my answer 😉
12/12/2023 @ 2:12 am
No, the students referenced in the hearing were chanting “intifada”. I knew it wasn’t something quite so obvious as “from the river…”, etc. Stefanik asked Magill to agree that chants of “intifada” were “calls for genocide.”
12/12/2023 @ 7:05 am
Right. Forgot about the intifada. Elise would have gotcha’d me for sure.
Something about college students. They are aware and informed, and care deeply about humanitarian issues, guns, climate, racism and bigotry, abortion, LGBTQ, same things I cared about when I was their age, and still do. In them I’m now able to recognize my young naiveté. They haven’t lived long enough yet to know human complexity, in others, in themselves. They are facing much darker times than we did though. They’ve earned their anger.
Elise, on the other hand, has not. Her outrage was inauthentic, faked, theatrical. She’s been leveled with charges of antisemitism herself, and also, where are her Jewish GOP colleagues and supporters? Only two, wonder why that is.
So, how are you liking DC?
12/12/2023 @ 7:46 am
DC is a big change, and we’re enjoying it a great deal. The area surrounding DC has difficult topography, and very old roads, so they are harder to learn, but it is great to be away from Gov. DeWine’s Ohio. Voting here was a simple, easy, pleasant process. Alexandria is beautiful. I really can’t say enough about it.
12/12/2023 @ 8:45 am
That is very good to hear. Our roads are old too, and narrow, former cow paths. You’ll get used to it. You bring Ohio snow driving ability, which you won’t need as much, but navigating former cow paths too narrow to plow curb-to-curb requires skill.
Have you done tourist things? I could spend days at the Smithsonian, esp want to see the Obama’s portraits at the National Portrait Gallery. If you go, maybe write a report.
And you’ll be ringside for the March 4 trial 😳
12/12/2023 @ 9:18 am
We are going to one of the museums on Christmas Eve. I don’t recall which one Amy has picked out. The locals around here say NYE is the best day of the year because the museums are open and no one is there.
We had dinner in Old Town for the Christmas boat parade, which was outstanding. I used to watch a similar event when I lived in Newport Beach, Ca, so seeing the East coast version made for a great entry into tourist activities. The restaurant was called Ada’s on the River (https://www.adasontheriver.com), and the meal was spectacular. Everything was excellent, but I especially sing the praises of the Brussels Sprouts with this amazing agrodolce sauce.
On the party scene, we attended a costume Halloween party as a couple of Koala bears. The people were all very friendly and interesting. So many people are from somewhere else, and it made for an evening of great conversations. Incidentally, Amy’s job is essentially a senior staff policy advisor/corporate expert. Part of her responsibility is to prepare her boss for congressional testimony like what the three Presidents went through last week. Given that, the people that we are able to hang out and talk with have fascinating experiences and stories…from all over the world. It also brings some great insights into D.C. social politics, and the lives of political appointees versus senior staff. This is a very, very different place.
12/12/2023 @ 10:11 am
Wow. It sounds great. A good fit and well worth the stress and angst of moving. DC is to politics what LA is to entertainment. Everyone there is from somewhere else too. In Boston, even if you were born in a car stopped in a Mass Pike tollbooth, you’ll always be ‘from away’.
After my divorce, I moved from Boston to upstate NY, tired of running into my ex and his new sweetie in Harvard Square. A year later, I moved back, homesick for art and coffee (don’t laugh, cans of Chock Full o Nuts was all they had available in upstate NY c1998). Since returning, I don’t see Boston the same way as before. I love living here more than I know how to talk about. Places fit.
Your wife will have good stories. Maybe you’ll run into Elise Stefanik in the supermarket. I’ve been re-watching The West Wing. It is teaching me so much about government, things that flew over my head the first time. It also feels soothing while waiting anxiously to see what happens in 2024. With your insider view, you might enjoy it.
12/12/2023 @ 10:23 am
I just read this on Tuesday a.m.
On Monday eveningwhen speaking at the city council meeting, I was admonished by the mayor for making my comments “personal” against a particular council member. It is in the fine print when you sign the form to sign up to speak.
I replied that I didn’t care, as the council person made it personal to me when he colluded with a number of persons unwilling to reveal themselves but intent on squelching my 1st Amendment rights, the city charter and the Library mission statement and process for review of library materials ( I had a printed copy with me ) to choose what I can read. I said the complaint was about that in particular and not the books in question.
The controversy has risen again about a couple of books which the council person claimed were “sexually explicit and being put in the hands of minors”. One of them has been the ongoing target of Moms for Liberty in many communities across the nation for 18 years. It’s about two male penguins who bonded and raised an egg to maturity. Penguins.
I did not wear my rainbow suspenders from the ’70’s to show support, per an e-mail request from the the county Democratic Committee, as the issue is greater than two books.
It is about the insidious nature of those who would conflate their self assigned moral superiority with the notion that they should control what others access, whether they be advocates or not.
The next step is pitchforks and bonfires.
12/12/2023 @ 11:35 am
Good on you. Keep going. Wear rainbow everything. Squawk loudly for your first amendment rights, same as they’re doing.
Concerns about about radicalizing children through picture books are such bs. Their goal is to gut education for everybody, from K-12 through higher ed. If they were truly upset about the immorality of penguin dads, they’d stick with kids and let higher ed alone. Homosexual behavior, btw, really happens in nature, esp with bird species: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_birds_displaying_homosexual_behavior
That’s a lot of gay birds, eh?!
Life is so difficult. Why don’t we treat one another with more kindness. Leave one another alone. Your kid can read about Jesus and mine can read about penguins.
12/12/2023 @ 11:58 am
I left the ornithology to others.
Time for letter writing.
12/12/2023 @ 6:14 pm
*Sad JD Salinger ought to have dwelled (focused) on LUCK and not the word it rhymes so well with ____
*Student and I wept a little bit youtubing The Seekers’ ‘Another You’ while we discussed Mardi Gras clad as Swan and Peacock {…} *My Way! I often smirk, as she’s rolling with the flow contrary to my goal to be wealthy enuff to pay it forward in the supermarket as those wounded old folk, ‘… can hardly push their survivalist overloaded carts ….’ *I quickly alter the subject to Havana Syndrome, curious as rizz if we should explore embryonic listening?! BING BARD ERNIE !? Let’s ascend from the gurney. Green Door? Sleepy Garden Walls? Steven Jobs’ Stanford University commencement speech? Fascism on Facebook? May y’all survive to 107 & be sure to catch twenty-two Mr. David Leonhardt’s most recent: ‘Ours Was the Shining Future’| ISBN 978081299320 *Bitney! you peerless scribe you! Will we see you soon on Bill Maher’s Club Random or not {…} *you Bindelsnitch dudes and dames have inspired me to pump iron while imbibin’ Bob Seger’s *Night Moves* FRACK! I’ll never be as creative as Cormac MIC cogent as Danny Boy turning back the sages or beneath moist magenta poppies sacred as the sane sad as silence {…} :HARK: [dark] silence & revenge have seven (7) symbols as though truth false are planned obsolescence: rightwrong warm as wine pure as midnight snow LO;}
12/12/2023 @ 6:27 pm
Intefadas get people killed. That’s all they do. Well, no, it’s not all they do; they also get people more oppressed.
If we hadn’t seen the Second Intefada, the one following the Ehud Barak/Yasser Arafat conference at Camp David, we may very well have seen an independent Palestinian state. That was the point of the conference. That’s why Barak showed up meeting about 95% of Arafat’s demands up front.
Is supporting an intefada supporting genocide? Supporting Hamas is absolutely supporting genocide. Supporting anyone still holding hostages is way beyond morally untenable and, if the shoe were on the other foot, none of those college Presidents would dream of supporting it or allowing it. Hamas’ stated intention and demonstrated intention is more draconian than that of the Klan. Oct. 7 was way worse than Tulsa. No one in Tulsa was taking hostages or beheading babies. I bring up Tulsa not to belittle anyone’s experiences but to point out just how insane tolerating this is. This wasn’t done at Pearl Harbor or during 9/11 either. This is in an entirely different category, not because of what people it was done to but because of what was done. This is joyous mass sadism and extermination of the most innocent people they could find.
Intefada. Who are they supporting? The Palestinian people?
Unfortunately, it’s never about the Palestinian people. Ever. No Palestinian is ever important to the world unless Jews are somehow harming them. No Palestinian is ever important to students unless Jews are somehow harming them. During the last several years, the Syrian military killed far more Palestinians than the IDF did. Crickets. Syrian Palestinians are very bitter about this, that they need Jews to kill them for anyone to care. In Lebanon they’re still in refugee camps. How many refugees are still alive? The camps were established 75 years ago. These are people born as refugees in Arab countries. Why? Where is the outcry?
We know where it is, and that’s the problem. The problem is that the cries for Intefada or From The River To The Sea are more about Jews than about Palestinians. And, not to put too find a point on it, but most Jews on those campuses aren’t Israelis.
Stefanik missed the important question:
Are there any circumstances where advocating for genocide on your campus is acceptable?
They sure as Hell hinted that there are during their answers.
12/12/2023 @ 6:47 pm
I’m not going to defend Hamas, now or ever. I’m not even going to defend the 1st amendment. I think we entered the “death pact” space regarding the first and the second amendments many years ago. This is not about that.
12/13/2023 @ 8:54 am
Students do not support Hamas. They don’t hate Jews. What they hate is needless brutal killing, whether it’s kids like themselves at a music festival, babies, old people, George Floyd, students at Sandy Hook.
Post millennial students are more demanding these days. They protest, boycott, want course trigger warnings, walk out, and throw tomato soup on museum masterworks. They may be naive in many areas, but they are unaccepting of nonsense, and I believe in them whole heartedly. What the media picks up and campus reality are not the same, btw.
Re: Israel/Palestine history. Although I’m trying to read and educate myself, which has become easier these days, the more I learn, the more I understand that I’m unqualified to take a side, and definitely not debate. It’s too big, there are too many facets, too many but this, and but tha
My BFF’s hubby is Israeli, raised on a kibbutz, served in the Israeli army, married, had a daughter, divorced, fell in love with my friend, and moved here to marry her. His family remains in Israel, his daughter and brother’s family. Since 1998, except during covid, my Thanksgiving has been spent at M’s table with his daughter and brother et.al. This year, everyone was too exhausted, devastated, and sad to host and visit.
Worth mentioning is that M has always hated Netanyahu. We used to think it was funny, like that Niagra Falls ‘slowly I turned’ skit, to say ‘Netanyahu’ and watch him go off, 100% of the time. Now I’m the same way about Trump, and understand better how you can love your country while hating its politics.
Even though we’ve argued here for many years, over many things, in my view, this war should not be one of them. Steve, hope you’re doing okay, I really do.
12/13/2023 @ 9:45 am
I’m physically OK, thanks. Past that, though I’m definitely Left I now hate a lot of the Left and I’m very, very shaken. Why do conservatives seem to be the only ones who see this with any clarity? This is insane.
The question was asked, not about the Intefada, not about From The River To The Sea, but
Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate _______’s policies of bullying and harassment?
That shouldn’t be a question in English. It sure as Hell shouldn’t be a necessary question and it absolutely shouldn’t be an ambiguous question.
As some others have pointed out, and they should have pointed this out, had the word “Jews” been replaced by any other minority you can think of, the question wouldn’t be worth asking.
And no, the students are not OK. Not at all. They proved that just after Oct 7, before the Israeli response even started, with over thirty Harvard organizations releasing a statement that they hold Israel responsible for Oct. 7.
Look at what actually happened on Oct. 7. In detail. I won’t go through it here. What I will say is that as a Jew, my people didn’t do that to German civilians during the Holocaust because, among other things, it’s against our religion, and because we’re not monsters. The Holocaust was unimaginably worse than anything Palestinians have ever encountered from Israel. Israel has never had a policy of “Because we are Palestinians we are going to kill you” but that is precisely Hamas’ policy about Jews. Their conduct doesn’t make this ambiguous and their statements don’t make this ambiguous. I don’t ordinarily like Nazi comparisons but from a Jewish standpoint the main difference between Hamas and Nazis is resources. They both badly want to kill all of us. Oct. 7 looked very like the conduct of Einsatzgruppen, except with added kidnappings.
So how can one legitimately claim that anything Israel did provoked Oct. 7? Not an uprising on Oct. 7 – that would be credible – but what actually happened on Oct. 7. Rapes. Kidnappings. Murders in gruesome ways of babies. Entering the home of an old woman, taking her cellphone, taking video of her murder, then posting that video on her social media accounts.
This is my question for those students:
If you see provocation as credible here, are you saying that you could be provoked by oppression to the point where you would do this?
I could’t be. Period.
If the answer is yes, any company who ever sees an application from you should blacklist you. Any potential spouse should blacklist you, given your attitude about rape alone.
What if the answer is no?
Here we get into what I really think is happening, and this isn’t excusable either, for different reasons:
Because of colonialism, Third Worlders cannot be held morally responsible for anything.
Israel is viewed as First World and so held to a different set of standards, in spite of the fact that the majority of Israel’s Jews came from the Arab world and not from Europe Not that this is relevant; it just makes the viewpoint that much more untenable.
So why shouldn’t they be held responsible? Because Judeo-Christian ethics are Western? Not to put too fine a point on it, but Judaism and Christianity both originated in Palestine, and Jews and Christians have continuously lived there since before there was an Islam.
This is in part a developmental issue, something Hamas and allies probably aren’t aware of but something that has really worked in their favor. My wife’s field is Student Development Theory. Students at that age aren’t finished with either their intellectual development nor their moral development. There’s a lot of relativism at that age, though some never grow out of it. That being said, if you don’t understand what’s morally wrong with what was done Oct. 7 from an Absolute standpoint, you probably don’t belong at an Ivy. Rape is never OK, culturally permitted or not, and you are extremely aware of that. Neither are kidnappings. Neither is the rest of a very long list.
If I’m going to get absolutist here, there’s a very easy guiding principle:
Ask the people at the bottom of any system.
If you go up to a woman in a burka and tell her she’s being victimized and she replies: I like it, it makes me feel safe, and it does not make me feel oppressed, then back off because to criticize her over this is to be culturally imperialistic. If, on the other hand, you go to a girl in Afghanistan and ask her if halting her education is OK with her, you’ll learn the difference real fast.
That any of those college Presidents should keep their jobs given those answers is a national disgrace. If you want to know if I feel vulnerable being the only group for whom that question could be asked without the answer being screamingly obvious, you better believe it. And I am, for the first time in my life, grateful to be living in a conservative area. If I chose to wear a skullcap in public, which I wouldn’t normally do because I only wear one when praying, no one would harass me here.
I have orthodox friends in Cambridge. I should ask them what they’ve encountered.
Years ago at Oberlin, my alma mater, I heard that students on their way to High Holy Day services were approached by protestors screaming about Israel. That’s not about Israelis, that’s flat-out about Jews. I can’t imagine they’d do that to any other minority. And I’m afraid it’s way too typical.
12/13/2023 @ 10:41 am
Steve, I hope you read the part of my comment where I said I feel unqualified to engage in debate or discussion on Israel and Palestine.
Students though, I know things. I spend my days with hundreds of them. Your wife is correct about twenty-something development not being quite there yet. I remember that time. I dropped out of high school with a 1.09 GPA and told my English teacher that reading was boring flyspecks on a page, believing I could see the world clearly without books (sorry, Mr. Tichton). College kids don’t know the gray scale yet, especially college kids who grew up in privilege.
The world is a horrible place right now. People are angry, despairing, lonely, afraid. Leaders like Bibi, Trump, Putin are opportunists. They don’t care about humans, and they view those who do as ‘weak’. They’re crushing our spirits.
I don’t know what else to say, except that I see you as a fellow human whose path has crossed with mine, whose history I know bits of, whose voice I recognize, whose intellect I respect, even when our perspectives differ, and who shares the loss of a mutual long time friend. One time I told him that I’d never argue with a black person willing to talk to me about their experience. Same goes with you.
12/13/2023 @ 10:42 am
Understand this. My view of this issue does not differ from yours one iota, Kosh. Frankly, I assume that applies to everyone here. I’m making that clear before I take issue with a couple of things that you said, and my point is entirely missed.
First,
“The question was asked, not about the Intefada,..”
The question was not about “the intifada”, or an intifada. The question was about genocide while using the word intifada, posed within a trap by Stefanik, to make the question as problematic as it appears. We are splitting hairs here, but for clarity these hairs need to be split. Where one comes down on either side of the split makes a difference. “The intifada”, or an intifada refer to historical occurrences. “Intifada” was the word spoken. The presidents were asked hypotheticals.
“Look at what actually happened on Oct. 7…”
This is not about Oct 7th. My post doesn’t mention it once. The presidents were called to the committee because of what Jewish students are facing on their campuses, in an English speaking country, by protesters speaking English, in a country where “Oct 7th” did not occur. My concern is that if the answers had been submitted in written form, or say, if someone incapable of making a dramatic display had been asked these questions by Stefanik, the controversy would not have arisen, and calls for their dismissal would not have occurred. That strikes me as fundamentally unfair, and a diversion from a reasonable approach to answering the problem on the campuses.
Third and finally,
“As some others have pointed out, and they should have pointed this out, had the word “Jews” been replaced by any other minority you can think of, the question wouldn’t be worth asking.”
I made no mention of this sort of thing in my post, and I disagree with the value of the thought in the public discussion that has been occurring. This sort of question is not only beside the point, but it never, ever results in coming together. This question causes separations. Further, the essential question of freedom, reverence for life, and rights should be handled as a principle. It must be the same no matter who is at issue. Citing differences or perceived differences only corrupts the question. The principle is the principle no matter whose flesh is involved. Whether actual differences exist, perceived differences will be found until the end of time, and that takes focus away from the principle.
Kosher, you are a person for whom I have held, and will continue to hold, deep respect and affection. That applies to everyone who remains here. I know that that is not returned here, and I am fine with that. The world is not made by what return one gets from people. It is made by what one offers and does. At least, that is how my parents persuaded me to see it. I don’t want you, or anyone else to see any difference between how I discuss something, or examine something, as a lack of respect or affection for them.
12/13/2023 @ 3:41 pm
Bitey, I don’t know why you think that isn’t returned. This discussion isn’t about to change things between us. I know way too much about how you think and feel for that to be possible. And now back to our previously scheduled disagreements:
I will return the hairsplitting. Ten seconds ago on YouTube I watched Stefanik ask:
“Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Harvard’s rules of bullying and harassment?”
No intefada. No trap. No ambiguity. The question is about genocide, verbatim. If the answer is: “I do not agree that calls for an intefada or saying ‘from the river to the sea’ constitute calling for the genocide of Jews,” then say that. What Dr. Gay replied was that whether calling for the genocide of Jews violates Harvard’s policies about bullying and harassment is dependent on the circumstances.
Good God, What Circumstances??
How could it not be harassment of Jewish students, faculty, and staff to advocate openly for their murder? What do these college presidents think genocide means?
As to my bringing other minorities into the discussion, what bigotry is is judging one population using different standards than judging others. This is judgement by membership, and in this case the membership isn’t even the right membership. Israel is a national entity. American Jews don’t vote in Israeli elections unless they have dual citizenship. While most of us are eligible for that citizenship, most of us don’t have it. I’m not Israeli, I’m American. The reason I care about Israel is that I care when Jews face bigotry. For me it is not about the country, it’s about the people. I have a problem when Israel is treated differently because it is primarily Jewish. The more closely I look at Israel, the more pervasive that phenomenon gets. I expected looking closer to make my intrinsic loyalties more ambiguous. The opposite happened, because the pervasiveness of different treatment became more and more apparent, and more and more sickening because of how normally it’s treated.
As to what’s about Oct. 7, the silence of feminist organizations on campus about the rapes of Israeli women on Oct. 7 is absolutely about Oct. 7.
Suzanne,
Bibi, Trump, and Putin are opportunists. I agree completely. I don’t like any of them. The problem I have is that in this situation Bibi is not the worst actor, he’s just the worst actor whose name the world knows. He’s being held responsible for things he’s not responsible for, and the guys who are responsible for it are not being held responsible. You’ll see over and over “I don’t like Hamas but” followed by twenty paragraphs on how evil Israel is. It’s pro forma. It’s the boilerplate on a drug ad on TV. It’s the legal disclaimer. But that’s not appropriate here.
I don’t know how much of an explanation you want from me. I give explanations compulsively, so I have to be careful. I also don’t know what you’d want that explanation to be about. It can be about the current fighting or it can be about what Israel is really about.
What the Hell. I’ll start you here.
12/13/2023 @ 5:14 pm
My mistake, Kosh. I didn’t mean to accuse.
Oct 7th is the worst event I have ever contemplated. I am not saying that t is the worst to happen, I don’t know that. This is just the worst I have ever deep processed.
The first thing I did when I saw the news of the event originally was to try to contact a friend of mine that I grew up with. She’s married and retired in Jerusalem now. It took days to hear from her at first, and y heart was already sinking just to contemplate the evil involved. It was a relief of sorts to get reconnected, but the evil of the larger event is just as destructive to the soul to contemplate.
I assume that most people are like me in that we have at least some distant connection to someone who is there, and we fear for them, and the region more generally. I didn’t know anyone at Srebrenica, or Rwanda, and the evil taking of life is horrible everywhere, but Oct 7th has affected most more personally…I am assuming.
12/13/2023 @ 5:37 pm
Steve, I’m not asking for, and don’t require an explanation. I’m close with someone from Israel, he talks plenty, and for two months, this has been all there is for him. I’m reading what you write though. Your words bleed, and that is heard.
I’m an old hippie chick, anti-war since Vietnam. Life is even more precious to me now that I’m old than it was when I was a young hippie chick. I mourn the beautiful dancing Israeli hippie chicks at the music festival who will get no more life, exactly as much as I mourn the floppy child bodies dredged in cement dust like grotesque bakery items pulled from Gaza rubble. This is not black and white for me.
As a smart man, you might ask if Elise Stefanik is using Jews to climb on a high horse charging at antisemitism, when she has stated that she believes in the great replacement theory. When we make that list of political opportunists, she’d certainly be on mine.
12/14/2023 @ 1:01 am
Of course she is. Her question should be nonsensical. It should be as ridiculous as a question about White genocide in America. What made it serious was the answers. I don’t think she expected those answers. I certainly wouldn’t have. I would have expected that to be a slow pitch question so these presidents could reassure us, not confirm her fears. If nothing else, I marvel at the stupidity of their giving her that
political gift.
12/14/2023 @ 8:31 am
This where I have my own conspiracy theory. I think somebody who knew academia set this up, picked all women college presidents, picked Stephanik to deliver the questions so it would be women on women, then they sat back and waited for the likely results. This is not my theory alone. Women colleagues are talking about this around the water cooler, although the media isn’t.
Ask any academic about admins over the past decade, and you’ll get an earful. They act like CEOs. Presidents, vice presidents, provosts, deans, that is exactly how they talk, with people pleasing vagueness and distance. Especially, (and god how I hate to say this) women administrators. Anyone who has spent a few years listening to them knows the speak.
The presidents were also coached beforehand by a lawyer, so their vague speak was groomed and doubtlessly amped up. Badly I’d say, and am guessing whoever briefed them is in deep Boston doodoo.
12/14/2023 @ 8:58 am
Had to think a bit before adding this bit of personal experience, decided it’s worth a mention.
In 33 years, my institution has had five presidents, two men, three women. I’ve been through 11 union contract negotiations. For two decades our faculty union head was an attack dog who multiple times made the women presidents cry. They were terrified of him. He knew this of course. It was part of his bargaining tactics. He was different dealing with the men presidents, softer, quieter, more back-slappy, even though one was an utter loon who often broke out in hives. Personally, I would have tried to make him cry. One reason this approach rattled the women was that we don’t do politics by brutal screechy confrontation. It’s so unexpected. The person who smiles at you at the copy machine and asks about your Thanksgiving then goes to a meeting and stabs you in the back.
Back to the conspiracy theory…I’m guessing whoever was behind the show was a man, and an academic insider, maybe buddies with one of the wealthy donors involved in board politics and campaigns against Harvard and Penn. This is a whole nuther topic that strays away, but just know that there are GOP gazillionaires who want to rework higher ed to their vision, and like the extremist christian right, see an opportunity to infiltrate by riding with maga.
12/14/2023 @ 9:34 am
The problem here isn’t sexism, it’s policy, specifically in the form of unequal treatment. The allegation is that Jews at these institutions are less protected than other populations. Yes, there are MAGA types who will be glad to use that, but we both know it shouldn’t be there to use. We Jews just lost more people in one day, and in a far nastier way, than at any time since before any of us here were born. The last time we saw these numbers the Nazis were doing it. Over 30 Harvard student organizations were blaming Israel for this, as in sole responsibility, before the casualty count or the hostage count were complete. If you think we Jews would stay quiet about it on the grounds that MAGA types might use this, I’m afraid we have a bigger problem than that.
The extent to which those presidents are responsible for the policies of their institutions would be a valid issue to address, particularly if they disagreed with those policies. That’s the only potential path to innocence here. That’s the only thing anything like an extenuating circumstance.
12/14/2023 @ 9:56 am
“The problem here isn’t sexism, it’s policy, specifically in the form of unequal treatment….”
Kosh, this isn’t correct. Stefanik is using the policy(s) to hold the respective presidents to account. Policy is not the issue. Both sides are claiming it. The presidents are speaking about it in the ways that their legal counsels have instructed them, and Stefanik is holding it over their heads.
The issue is absolutely exacerbated by sexism. Women and men do argue and fight differently. Suzanne gave a bit of an example of it with the water cooler bit. Women from the time that they are young girls are penalized much more for not being “good girls”, going along and being smiling and pleasant. That’s not necessary for men to nearly as great a degree. Furthermore, stereotypes can be turned inside out in certain circumstances and used to advantage. When Ms. Gay gave her stiff refusal to go along, Stefanik was not prepared to deal with it. Magill may not even have known how to do that. And to combat Gay, the GOP needed someone other that Stefanik who was in over her head in that particular contest. Byron Donalds comes to mind as a possible alternative, and yes, stocking the quill with women and ethnic minorities is an affirmative, sexist and racist strategy to…divide and conquer.
12/14/2023 @ 10:30 am
Our roles are kind of reversed here. Well, mine is. Yours may not be. Normally I’m the one diagnosing and keeping some of my morality out of it. Your diagnosis, and Suzanne’s, is probably correct here as to who is doing what why.
The problem here for me is that the pawn is more than just a pawn.
And, in another respect, my role is not changed. My biggest objection to the role of the press in the US when it comes to politics is that they scorekeep more than they behave as the Fourth Estate and actually safeguard. Yes, the gun on the table is a prop. Unfortunately, I’m acutely aware of the fact that it’s loaded, possibly because I’m where it’s aimed.
12/14/2023 @ 5:08 pm
Thank you for seeing that Bitey. Even liberal men can have this blind spot. Put three Ivy League women college presidents on public display and sexism is over, like racism was over because we elected Obama. (/s)
Not much media coverage that Magill was former faculty, and not even a year in the job. She’d been targeted for months by Penn board members, and supposedly had already planned to resign. She’s returning as faculty, but will her colleagues embrace her? My guess: no.
Academia is a primary target for the extreme right. We incubate and nurture the minds of the next crop of Marxist radical left Democrats. We’re godless, diverse, and use pronouns and trans bathrooms. This is why DeSantis is gutting Florida state curriculum and tenure. It started with Scott Walker, but he didn’t have the support then and times sure have changed. Trump recently stated his intention to start a national university that will teach only approved ‘American curriculum’, i.e. for christian white students disinterested in critical thought. He is far too stupid to have thought of this himself. Some other voice whispered it in his ear–Stephen Miller I’m guessing, or Bannon. The scary thing that so many people will think heck yeah, free national university, where do we apply?
This is higher ed in Russia btw. Free, and a student herd that is progressively cut back via exams, then a nice state job for those left standing.
12/14/2023 @ 5:21 pm
also, soon you’ll be able to enroll in Elon Musk’s new university:
https://newrepublic.com/post/177547/elon-musk-new-university-texas
12/14/2023 @ 5:59 pm
Suzanne, in response to your 5:08 (12/14) comment:
Whatever I understand about social politics, admittedly not a lot, I learned from my wife. From when we first started dating, well into having been married for many years, we could go to social events and see totally different things. To give an overly simplistic analysis, my views were relatively superficial. Hers were deep. Mine involved often what was said, and what that literally meant. Hers involved interpretations of statement, combined with body language, reverse interpretations of meaning…and all kinds of necromancy that I still hardly understand.
We can bounce off of one another for better understandings, but mine tend to be better readings of men, with more direct communications. Hers involve women to women, women to men, and men to women. I have never known her to be wrong, and I don’t know anyone who dislikes her. Conversely, I’m wrong all the time, and I know plenty of folk who don’t like me. She is something of a genius who for the last 20 years or so has only had to apply for jobs after they were offered to her.
She was raised by a couple who had the typical 50s domestic arrangement. Amy often quotes that line from “Field of Dreams” where the the two women argued about book banning at the Iowa town meeting. Costner’s wife scolded one woman saying, “you just had two 50s and moved on into the 70s.” It was a throw away line for me, but was deeply meaningful for Amy. She said her parents were like that, except that they had two 50s, and then just kept having 50s.
My mother in law is a brilliant woman who has a B.A. in fine art, and a PhD in Passive Aggressiveness. Amy, growing up in the 60s and 70s, had to dodge the emotional mortars of her mom, and construct a real world, and how to succeed in it, because he born wealthy father had not a clue about how the world is not a Horatio Alger story where every child receives the largesse of some wealthy benefactor. (Uncle MAGA is the younger brother of my father in law). So, I have her to thank for being able to see what women deal with…to the degree that I do. Without her, I am quite certain I would not have seen it.
12/15/2023 @ 7:51 am
I like discovering these personal narratives. Stories have always interested me more than debates. Your wife sounds lovely.
I share with her a mother with a BA in art (history) and a PhD in passive-aggressive. To be fair to them, women had few options back then. College was for catching a successful man, then marriage and kids. My mother could never acknowledge my career, that I was doing professionally what she studied herself, art. To her, I was divorced with no children, so unsuccessful.
Doing what I do makes me able to recognize a good artist when their art still looks crude. My mom could have been good, but she had me and my sister, and painted flowers on our dining room chairs instead. In my studio, I have a rocking chair she painted with strawberries, and I think about the irony every day.
12/15/2023 @ 8:17 am
There are definitely some common traits between these ladies. My mother in-law is in her 90s, and she still writes for a small town newspaper, and the “cluster” of Episcopalian churches in her region.
My wife grew up in a house that my in-laws had designed and built on the outskirts of their little town. It was an 8000 sq. foot palace of modern architecture for 2 adults and 2 children. Her father was in his 20s when he started having it built. Her mother used to do all sorts of art projects for the family, including painting windows with seasonal designs. She was, and is, incredibly talented.
Once her talented daughter began to develop in school, mom was either trying to do her work for her, so that it would be perfect…which my wife rejected, or she was competing with her. When my wife graduated Phi Beta Kappa, my mother in-law could only complain that her degree wasn’t eligible for the honor. No praise for her daughter’s achievement. Life went on like that for the next 40 years.
If there were any narcissists in my family when I was growing up, and I assume there were, I was shielded from them. I had zero negative experiences with adults as a child. I was completely blind to them by the time I was an adult. My wife, however, had experience with one, and has memories from pre-kindergarten. While the rest of us were just trying to understand the real world, she was doing the same and learning to differentiate from an imaginary world that came from someone that she should have trusted most. That heavy course of psychological calisthenics made her very adept at navigating social politics.
12/15/2023 @ 9:22 am
It sounds like your MiL is more active with her creative practices than my mom was. Competition played a role in my relationship too, possibly a result of our mothers feeling unable to compete with adult men. Yet they didn’t see how they hurt their daughters. Good on Amy for moving forward w/o being crushed.
My mom’s artist leanings popped out in projects like embroidered baby dresses and the painted furniture. When I was in high school (and a very unpleasant rebellious person), she asked me to make a painting for my grandfather of the barn on the farm where he grew up. I was highly invested in making good pictures then, and architecture is very hard to get right, plus I was a surly brat, so I said no. Mom made the painting. Went out to western PA, photographed the barn, painted it, and the painting looked great. My grandfather loved it, she received gobs of praise, and I was stunned. I could not have made that painting, not for ten more years. After he died, she took it back, and after she died, I tried to find it, but couldn’t. It would be hanging over the strawberry rocking chair if I did.
Last mention is that boys tend grow up with their awareness trained on things other than emotional or psychological danger. Girls learn to recognize, identify and adapt to it, become masters of tone, of what isn’t said. I talk with students when their childhoods are still fresh, because this stuff is where content emerges. As an artist, it’s the reward for what your childhood cost you.
12/14/2023 @ 10:41 am
I agree with every drop of your 10:30 (12/14) comment, Kosh. And for emphasis, yes, the fourth estate is dead. The press is a dope dealer that is willing to sell you whatever you want. And when you can’t afford it, they will give you something else to keep you addicted. I find myself dumpster diving through the press in order to find older reporters who are not anchoring, but out in the dangerous places, and have understandings of the issues, and other history which helps to inform us. The best journalists are harder to find, and that is part of what ails us currently.
12/14/2023 @ 5:13 pm
This, exactly. I subscribe to Heather Cox Richardson’s daily newsletters. Some days, they start to pile up unread like my old New Yorker issues, but other days, they are the only news I read.
12/14/2023 @ 12:47 pm
I suppose I should talk about the kids in the Gaza rubble and how they got there.
There is a question on the table right now. The question is whether Biden is right about Netanyahu being deliberately indiscriminate about bombing right now. It isn’t historically how the IDF has worked but I’m not familiar enough with details on the ground to know if there’s any truth to that happening right now.
Many years ago, Golda Meir said that she could forgive the Arabs for killing our sons but she couldn’t forgive them for making us kill theirs. I don’t know how many people understood her. I very much doubt the Arabs did at all. To them, if Jews are their enemies and they’re killing Jews, what’s the issue? Right now what she said makes a great deal of sense.
The point behind Oct. 7 was to make Israel react by killing a whole lot of Gazan civilians and getting the world outraged at Israel for doing so, knowing that Israel would have no choice. Israel doesn’t, particularly with hostages still out there. This is how the human shield tactic works, though to use it you have to view your own civilians as more valuable to your cause dead than alive, which Hamas does.
One could say that there is a rule that you don’t kill military people if civilians are in the way. So they launch rockets from crowded neighborhoods and put arms and headquarters inside or beneath hospitals, schools, or anywhere else it would be intrinsically inhumane to return fire. From Israel’s standpoint, there are two problems with this:
1. Respecting that rule allows Hamas to kill as many Israelis as they want with impunity. There’s no way to return fire.
2. In order to respect that rule, the IDF has to value Palestinian civilian lives above Israeli civilian lives.
Israel can’t do either. A tiny country filled with Jews can’t accept another genocide. If the choice is kill or die, they’ll kill. If they get an opportunity to trade land for real peace, they’ll do it. They did it with Egypt, and it was Menachem Begin who did it, the founder of Likud, the founder of the Irgun.
In WWII, Londoners went into the Tube to avoid getting killed in the Blitz. There are hundreds of miles of tunnels under Gaza and civilians don’t have access to them during bombings. The point of the military is to preserve the lives of your own civilians, unless you’re Hamas.
We hear repeatedly about shortages of water, food, medicine in Gaza. They’re all in ample supplies in the tunnels, but they’re never distributed to civilians. Who’s blamed for the shortages?
We talk about Netanyahu, a man I generally despise, but this deliberate sacrifice of Palestinian lives and a whole lot of what they’re suffering isn’t his doing. If we were talking about the West Bank I’d be holding him way more responsible because he is there. Regardless of what’s going on there, a lack of legal oversight on the settlers isn’t justifiable, even if that lack of oversight isn’t comprehensive.
But Hamas is no more honest about reacting to what’s going on in the West Bank than Stefanik is about reacting to what’s going on at Harvard. Hamas is an extremely cynical organization, more than Likud is.
I can’t stomach that Netanyahu is the poster child for Gazan civilian deaths. Ultimately, he’s not the one with a choice. He doesn’t determine whether hostages remain in Gaza. He doesn’t determine when or from where rockets are launched at Israeli civilians, a phenomenon that continues.
If there’s a ceasefire, what does that say about the hostages? What it says is that hostage taking works.
I’m an ardent Zionist, but I don’t want to see those kids in Gaza die either.
12/14/2023 @ 2:40 pm
Blame is never going to be of any value in a real discussion about Israel vs Hamas. Israel is an entity planted in and invested in civilization. Hamas is purely nihilistic. They’re just as excited about Palestinian deaths as Israel is.
Among Netanyahu’s problems is that he essentially abandoned Gaza to fortify the West Bank, for political reasons. I don’t know if he was intentionally sowing the seeds of this conflict, or if it was like a rake in the yard for him, but it really doesn’t matter.
12/13/2023 @ 8:30 pm
It finally worked. This is where Stefanik loaded her trap. She started with “intifada” and equated it to “genocide.”
12/14/2023 @ 9:14 am
How could Stefanik be capable of manipulating the presidents of Harvard, MIT, and Penn simultaneously? Would you have believed this was possible before it was televised? These are very smart, very politically savvy people with one Hell of a lot of media experience. To cast them as victims is disingenuous. Nor was Stefanik as incisive as she could have been. It would have been easy to pick another minority example and compare what was tolerated. Or, better yet, she could have tried to find records of physical harassment of Jews that happened on these campuses.
This wasn’t about “the Jews run the banks, the Jews are greedy, the Jews are manipulating the world.” This was specifically about a call to action to kill Jews.
12/14/2023 @ 9:32 am
Kosh, this is an easy one. She didn’t have to build the gun and engineer the bullets. There was one laying on a table. Stefanik didn’t have to get them to agree. They didn’t have to follow her lead. They could have been a bit more resistant. The word game that she played isn’t genius or new. It is ancient and fairly transparent. She even revealed her intent by cutting them off when they didn’t go down the path that she was trying to scare them down. Magill was the most compliant and the first to go. Gay was the most resistant and got backing from her university.
Look, it is really this simple. The word genocide is LOADED. The message Stefanik and her evil handlers want the viewing public to come away with is that the university administration hates Jews, and is coaxing the obstreperous youth into genocide. This way, two groups generally opposed to the GOP fight against liberals, and part of one or both of them begin supporting GOP/conservatives. You said yourself,
“Past that, though I’m definitely Left I now hate a lot of the Left and I’m very, very shaken. Why do conservatives seem to be the only ones who see this with any clarity? This is insane…”– KS
My friend, this is not serendipity. This is a recipe. This comes from a divide and conquer strategy. The gun was laying on the table.
12/14/2023 @ 9:53 am
It is the universities who put the gun on the table. They are responsible for that.
No, I am not about to turn Right. The Left has annoyed the crap out of me for years in all sorts of ways, including my having to differentiate the BLM movement from the BLM organization that endorses BDS, The Left may have betrayed me worse this time, but regardless of how many times they betray me, a lack of protections for other minorities is just wrong, in addition to which it is not liberal politicians who are betraying me. Aside from the Squad, the Democrats in Congress have my back. Denying climate change is wrong and stupid. Letting one religion regulate abortion is wrong. Facilitating grossly unequal wealth distribution is wrong and stupid. Denying the results of a clean election is more unpatriotic than I hope I will ever be able to get. I can’t turn Right any more than a lot of centrist Republicans can become Democrats in spite of how much they despise Trump and MAGA. I am who I am.
The word genocide gets loaded because it’s misused so badly so often. However, when applied to Hamas, the term is being used properly. Their ultimate goal is my extinction, and they are willing to sacrifice thousands and thousands of their own civilians to get closer to that goal.
For what it’s worth, October 7 did not change my opinion of Hamas, just my opinion of how urgent it was to eliminate them. I already knew that’s who they were. They’ve been crystal clear about that.
12/14/2023 @ 10:07 am
I wasn’t clear. The GOP doesn’t need you to “turn right”. They need a show, which they received. Their target is the middle, less rational, less informed voting public. If it appears that part of the left agrees with Stefanik and her rogues gallery, then they have caught some independent minnows in their net.
Not to confuse the two issues, but to point out a tactic that they use in common…they will also plant certain ideas among the facts when they raise a ruckus. One example is this George Floyd film going around. The issue is the issue, and has already been adjudicated. What is included in the audio? They are calling it “one of America’s worst race riots.” It wasn’t race riot at all. They will misinform about events when it is useful, and try to stop discussion about others when it is not. It is mighty useful to implant in people’s minds that the crowds were chanting genocide…when they were not.
12/15/2023 @ 11:32 am
Except…
“From the river to the sea” involves ethnic cleansing at the very least. It is about the replacement of Israel with a Palestinian state on that land. There is no ambiguity whatsoever about what the slogan means. There is no benign way to look at it.
If the phrase were simply “Palestine will be free,” sure. Frankly, I have for years advocated a Palestinian state, assuming they’d accept one, which they haven’t. It would be way better for all concerned, Palestinians and Israelis. But that’s not the phrase. The phrase these kids chant is the equivalent of Israel Must Go. There’s no question what going involves, only its severity.
And we already know the mindset behind it. How? The policies that have already been in place. Israel has two million Palestinian citizens, more than 20% of Israel’s citizens, but neither the PA nor Hamas accepts Jews at all. Not Jews whose ancestors recently came from Europe, not Jews whose ancestors came from elsewhere in the Middle East, and – most tellingly – not Jews whose ancestry has been continuous in Palestine for centuries at the very least until now without interruption. Who is defined as Palestinian? Anyone whose continuous ancestry has been in Palestine, Unless They’re Jewish. And there’s an exception for recent Arab immigrants who for some reason are automatically considered Palestinian.
If they were advocating for a peaceful neighboring Palestinian state, most American Jews already support that, including me.
12/15/2023 @ 12:18 pm
Discussion of this particular subject, made of separate incidents, from the terroristic attack to the ambush of the presidents before congress, seems indescribably intractable. Often, the concept of ‘three dimensional chess’ is invoked to imply complexity. I’d tweak that a bit. This seems more like a chess game with all of the traditional players, but with the addition of a lawyer. The lawyer can’t be removed from the game, and it has sued to enjoin all pieces from moving in the way that they are designed to move. No amount of historical reference, or forward planning can make any single step possible.
Hamas just wants to sweep one side of the board. I’m sure it would if it could. It would rape the pieces and dismember them. Israel, on the other hand, would sweep the other side of the board. It most certainly would not rape or dismember the pieces, but it would kill them dead.
Suddenly we have left the game meant to represent power and descended to a pre-civilization use of power…except for the sophistication of the weapons used. This is annihilation of one side or the other.
I could come up with endless ugly metaphors and imagery to describe the hell that this conflict represents, and it would both fall short of what victims have had to endure, and insult the motivations of the participants. A radioactive wasteland seems like an understatement.
Completely outside of that wasteland is the explanation of elements of policy, as it applies to those interested in, or by some means connected to the conflict on an intellectual level. To be clear, making policy is one thing, but answering questions about meanings or values within that policy is several degrees of separation away from the inhumane invents being referenced in the discussion of the events…and the policy. The feelings about one should not mirror the feelings about the other. They can and should absolutely influence them, but if we take the most extreme circumstances, and our means for dealing with them, and then apply those means to discussion, then we have made discussion and correction obsolete. The only means for correction and repair would be the most severe…sweeping the board.
12/15/2023 @ 6:48 pm
Israel would sweep which other side of the board?
There isn’t symmetry here. Israel does not want Gaza and would rather Palestinians lived peacefully in Gaza. Israel is not interested in slaughtering the more than 20% of its citizenry that is Palestinian.
One thing I can tell you about the history is that Israel’s is overwhelmingly reactive. This was true way before Israel was founded, when the first massacre in modern Palestine of significant size was the Arab massacre of Jews in Hebron in 1929. There is a fence between Israel and the West Bank because a lot of Palestinians were crossing into Israel and murdering Israelis. Israel forcibly pulled all its settlers out of Gaza in 2005 with the hope that Gaza would turn into a Palestinian Singapore. Hamas violence is what triggered the embargoes and blockades.
Attitudes on the two sides are generally very different. When Israel and Egypt signed a peace agreement, the Egyptians were shocked when Israelis started organizing tours of the pyramids for Israelis. Egyptians were looking for non-aggression. Israelis were looking for normalization. Israel has two million Arab citizens. The Arab world has fewer than four thousand Jewish citizens. This is not symmetrical hatred. You’ll find examples of symmetrical hatred, but they’re not pervasive.
Not even with Netanyahu. Many years ago, an Arab Israeli man and his teenaged sons were bringing water to IDF soldiers near the Syrian border when a Syrian sniper shot the son to death. Israel immediately bombed a Syrian barracks in retaliation and the man got a phone call from the Prime Minister telling him that they’d avenged the killing of his son. Arab or not, the kid and his family were Israelis.
12/15/2023 @ 7:56 pm
I don’t think there is any symmetry. I’m not sure why you think there should be. That’s not a judgement of anyone. Israel is surrounded by nations dedicated to its destruction. Israel is dedicated to its survival. Palestinians are the surrounding nations’ pawn. No one wants a 2 state solution. Iran wants Israel to wipe out the Palestinians…to justify doing the same to Israel. There does not seem to be a position to negotiate down to anymore.
12/14/2023 @ 9:29 am
Not casting anyone as victim, just telling you how admins talk and approach being tested. In academia anyway, it’s proved quite effective. Trust me, I am no fan of college presidents.
And Stefanik is a tool. That is all she is, like MTG, only smarter, and maybe meaner. Maybe she volunteered to ask questions, but she didn’t make the plan. Maga GOP white men use women. You haven’t noticed?
As previously mentioned, am unqualified to engage in a discussion about Jews and Palestine, so I’ll just show myself out now.
12/14/2023 @ 10:11 am
At no point am I asking you to show yourself out. This is in no way intended as an attack on anyone here personally. I’m expressing some frustration at viewpoints but that’s it. That’s divorced from the personal. I think the kids are more irresponsible and less benign than you do. However, some of that might be explained by a recent article in the Wall Street Journal (sent to me, I don’t read it) where 250 (I think) students from various institutions were asked a series of questions about what From The River To The Sea meant, among other things, and a whole lot of them had no idea which river or which sea. A lot of these kids may be parroting and miscasting the issue. Most of them probably think that Israel is the main obstacle to a two state solution and that the reason there aren’t two states now is Jewish settlers. Hell, you might think that. Given how things over there are presented, it would be reasonable if you did.
12/14/2023 @ 10:31 am
sorry, just saw this and I do need to make the car go to Boston, but YES that is what I’ve been saying, kids are naive and they want to be cool and the current crop loves a protest. See also what I wrote to Bitey, they are from all over the world, every country, and hold a buffet of (youthful) views.
12/14/2023 @ 10:35 am
and Steve, The Wall St Journal is a GOP rag for those too smart to watch Fox. You’re not going to find a non-partisan view expressed in there…burn it!
12/15/2023 @ 11:11 am
I know what the Wall Street Journal is. Someone sent me the content and the content of this particular article was interesting. I’m not about to subscribe.
12/14/2023 @ 9:38 am
Suzanne, not because I agree with you, but because it would be an injustice. Do not show yourself out, please. There are scant few of us left. Kosher has already indicated that he will endure disagreement. Frankly, part of the reason, I think, he can’t see Stefanik’s role is that he is so utterly rational. He’s smoking hot over the issue, but examining with a reasoned/ethical eye. Stefanik’s role and tricks are back alley games.
And as for your experience, my wife’s views echo yours. At first, I was worried about Ms Gay’s response because she was a bit more truculent. Amy said, no, that’s what made Stefanik back off. Amy helps to prepare the FDIC chairman, who is currently in a bit of hot water himself.
12/14/2023 @ 10:26 am
Bitey, thank you. But I do have to drive into Boston in half an hour.
I know Steve is upset, and might not see the bigger forest through Stefanik tree blight. My friend M is same. I regret how I used to bait him about Bibi. While picking squash in his garden, if I wondered aloud whether Bibi liked squash, he’d be off and running. I definitely don’t do that now. Things are sad at his house over these holidays.
Worth mentioning perhaps for Steve is a reminder that Harvard is an international institution, with students from everywhere in the world. I have no doubt that there are Islamic groups, Jewish groups, even Russian mafia groups. My institution is part of the state system, so most of our students are state residents or from adjacent states. Over the past decade, to juice up tuition, we’ve accepted international students too, mostly Asian, but also from Middle Eastern countries. I mentioned the Russian mafia because I had the daughter of one in class and she was a very scary girl. Even so, we are not a hotbed of antisemitism, it’s exactly the opposite. Students are comfy demanding everything, but genocide isn’t on their menu.
P.S. Your wife speaks academia 🙂
12/27/2023 @ 3:52 pm
I keep wondering what Ron would have said about all this. I wish we could know that.
For me, there are several issues.
The inserverability of Israel and the Jewish people. Jews around the world will suffer for acts committed by Israel. Israel will be held accountable for acts committed by Jews who have nothing to do with Israel. When Jews are attacked in the United States in retaliation for acts committed in Israel, that’s antisemitism, pure and simple.
The breach between right-wing liberals and left-wing liberals within the Democratic party, with the young and the woke creating a schism with the older and more aware. The timing of the Jan6 attacks achieved nothing for the Gazans, but it achieved a great deal for the Republicans in the United States, by weakening the Democratic party right at the beginning of an election year. Not a coincid
And, finally, finally, I am being forced to admit to myself that too much is too much. I believe that the Israelis are overreacting specifically because they were asleep at the switch and let this happen. Maybe it was unavoidable if you allow Gazans to work in Israel. I understand that Hamas must be eradicated but, unfortunately, Hamas is really everyone in Gaza….guilt by association.
The Israelis have to entice Hamas into open combat and stop shelling refugee camps. Emotionally, I want to say that it is someone else’s turn to suffer. Philosophically, I can’t say that. Politically, I shouldn’t say that.
Ultimately, though, I have to point out that the two state solution will never work…but there are two million Palestinians who obviously think the one-state solution works because they stayed in Israel, and continue to stay in Israel, raised families, and put down deeper roots.
Yes, in the end, demographics will be the final arbiter of what happens in Israel, and the Israelis are losing that war, slowly, gradually, and quite possibly inevitably.
12/27/2023 @ 6:10 pm
I wonder too.
Your comment about the military reacting after being caught asleep at the wheel is a good one. That’s not an aspect I’d considered.
The problem (like there’s a “the problem” on this issue) I have with responsibility is how it doesn’t go at all where it belongs. I’m watching in slow motion while a Hamas plot essentially works, though at least a lot of Hamas leaders and others in Hamas are getting killed in the process and losing assets.
Here’s what I see:
Hamas doesn’t have the assets to take down Israel. They need help. The only way they get help is to get enough of the world outraged at Israel. In order to do that, they have to get Israel to kill a whole lot of Palestinian civilians in Gaza. How? It takes three steps, and it takes enough knowledge of the world to know that they won’t be held responsible for their role in this, even though they leave it in plain sight. It has to do with a weird worldwide moral code that Third Worlders aren’t held morally responsible. This is a big reason people keep referring to the Jews of Israel as Europeans, even though the majority of Jews in Israel come from Arab countries. The steps:
1. Get Israel to attack.
2. Get Israel to keep attacking
3. Get Israel to kill as many civilians as possible
The Oct. 7 attack was guaranteed to achieve #1, and taking hostages was the best way to achieve #2. You’ll notice that no one who talks about ceasefires and peace, including the Pope, a man I admire a great deal, talks about releasing the hostages as a prerequisite for anything.
Step 3 is multipart:
* Launch rockets from densely populated areas
* Keep assets in and under schools and hospitals
* Physically prevent civilians from leaving areas the Israelis have announced they’ll attack
* Prevent civilians from sheltering in tunnels during bombings, like Londoners were able to shelter in the subway during the Blitz
* Leave civilians without sufficient food, water, and medicine while storing ample supplies of all three in the tunnels
People see bombs. They don’t notice why civilians are clustered under them. There is no real outcry about Hamas responsibility for the Palestinian civilian death toll when it is Hamas that initiated it and encourages it.
Of course people are freaked by the numbers. Over 20,000 in two and a half months. No one is stopping to realize that if Israel were trying to kill civilians, they could have easily hit that number is 2 1/2 days. Just line up artillery and tanks at the border and shoot at big buildings. I’m not sure they’d even need the Air Force to take off, though an aerial bombardment might be faster.
It’s easier not to think.
One issue is that Israel has friends that can’t admit they’re friends. Biden is one; he has to react to the casualty count. Also, it’s easy by habit to fight with Netanyahu, even when he’s right. A lot of the Sunni governments side with Israel but against Hamas. Unfortunately, they badmouthed Israel for so long to their own citizens that they grew to buy it, and now they have to deal with public opinion they created.
If there’s going to be a break in this, it would take a lot of guts and might get someone assassinated. It’s the sort of thing the Saudis could do. They know damned well this whole thing was designed by Iran to derail their rapprochement with Israel. They’ve been fed up with the Palestinians for a while now, they want to invest in Israel and they want cooperation to conveniently be more open, particularly because of Iran. They could take point on this, not that I’d count on it, and if they did they could essentially force a two state solution. They may be the only people who can, particularly if they get backed by a few other Sunni governments.
12/27/2023 @ 5:15 pm
I wonder what Ron would have said as well. I’m sure we all do, and will for some time. It’s safe t say that we have all been imprinted by Ron Powell.
This subject of this war came up in my family gathering which had three Jewish members in attendance. My position was how this issue practically precludes discussion. Almost any statement implies a position, and any position has a moral counter. The discussion was essentially about the need to be able to discuss impossible subjects like this one.
12/29/2023 @ 9:05 am
I miss Ron too. I’d read a dozen of his when oh when are you white people going to –––––––––––? posts without a speck of annoyance.
Ron’s style was to post an article or a vid, then say, discuss. Comments ensued, often at great length. This morning I read an essay in the NYTimes by Thomas Friedman. Friedman holds a perspective I appreciate. He feels the conflict deeply and doesn’t choose to make devils of Hamas or of Israel. He manages to outline both the big picture and the details in a balanced and aware manner.
His essay begins with the question: why is the UAE a thriving visionary economically booming Arab state where apparently millions are moving to live, while Gaza, same sand, same ocean is not? It’s a comparison I’d never considered and his answer is compelling and clear.
Subsequently he discusses the visions of both Israel and Hamas, and where both states went wrong. He’s as critical of Netanyahu as Hamas, concluding that the goal of both is mutually assured destruction.
Ron would have selected a quote. Maybe this one. It summarizes Friedman’s fears. Mine too.
“Israel is being surrounded by what I call Iran’s landcraft carriers (as opposed to our aircraft carriers): Hamas, Hezbollah, the Houthis and Shiite militias in Iraq. Iran is squeezing Israel into a multi-front war with its proxies. I truly worry for Israel.
But Israel will have neither the sympathy of the world that it needs nor the multiple allies it needs to confront this Iranian octopus, nor the Palestinian partners it needs to govern any post-Hamas Gaza, nor the lasting support of its best friend in the world, Joe Biden, unless it is ready to choose a long-term pathway for separating from the Palestinians with an improved, legitimate Palestinian partner.”
tldr; like Bitey, I’m only able to take the position of sorrow.
Happy, or as Happy as we can make this one, New Year’s, men of Bindlesnitch ❤️
01/03/2024 @ 11:48 am
Bindle red bandana {…} 01 JAN 2024 {…}
RB Queen and I opened this cold gray dawn with Fogerty’s }{ LODI }{ concurred Mr. Friedman’s column is existential (smack dab right on) {lo;} although it may lapse untended by any arbitrators of tranquility. Now we’ll read the entire 31 DEC 2023 TIMES bit by bit already with the preconceived notion that we will not be able to forget about everything though we strive for ‘heavenly cause’.
Transnationally the 1st Commandment proffers yet oft ‘havocs’ the power of love. Preemption guarantees redemption. ☮ ought never be whispered. Sign language indeed: AMAZING GRACE X(:🙏X Also the fork along the road led toward several deep night comps (hey James Emmerling!) Happy Nihilism what with the septillion clanking /\ sparked swords of absurdism existentialism — just sayin’ we’ve more territorial lines in the sand than love letters.