You said you want numbers
Survey: many voters believe American society is racist
Published: Jul. 21, 2020 at 5:46 AM EDT
WASHINGTON (NBC) — “Amid a moment of national reckoning on racial issues and the mourning of one of the country’s most revered civil rights leaders, new numbers from the NBC News/Wall Street Journal poll show that American voters have become significantly more aware of racial discrimination and more sympathetic to those protesting to end it, even as the country remains deeply divided over the prevalence of bigotry and its root causes.
The poll finds that voters in America are now more likely to say that people of color experience discrimination, to describe athletes kneeling in protest of racial inequality as appropriate, to view the Black Lives Matter movement as a positive force, and to support the removal of Confederate monuments in public spaces.
But at the same time, voters are deeply pessimistic about the current state of race relations, the country is sharply divided about whether racism is systemic or just perpetrated by “bad apples,” and partisan identity remains an overwhelming predictor of how voters view the experiences of people of color and the current movement for greater racial equality.
The poll — which was conducted July 9-12, before the death of civil rights leader Rep. John Lewis — found that a majority of voters, 56 percent, say that American society is racist, while 40 percent disagree. That share is almost unchanged since the Associated Press found 55 percent of voters saying American society is racist in a July 1988 survey.”
Read the he remainder of this at:
https://www.wilx.com/2020/07/21/new-survey-shows-many-voters-believe-american-society-is-racist/
04/01/2021 @ 11:17 am
Can Ron Powell tell the difference between they following statements?
1. A majority of Americans find American society racist.
And
2. Most white people are racist?
Can Ron Powell tell the difference between those two sentences?
Numbers were requested of Ron Powell. These aren’t it. Ron Powell was asked, “can Ron Powell present numbers as evidence that “most white people are racist”, as opposed to “the agreed assumption that some racism among white people obviously exists. The number should go to demonstrating most verses some. Ron Powell has failed to show anything like that. Ron Powell merely repeats the same assertion. There is a difference between most and some…Ron Powell does not seem capable to comprehending what is being asked.
04/01/2021 @ 12:26 pm
How can American society be racist if most white people aren’t racist?
White people aren’t going to admit or acknowledge that they are racists as individuals…
They’re not going to shout it from their rooftops or whisper it to a pollster.
However, most are willing to accept the fact that their society is racist…
Your continued attempts to disrespect, insult, and belittle me speak volumes about who and what you are which is why I needn’t react or respond to the crap you love to wallow in…
04/01/2021 @ 12:46 pm
You said that you ignore statements that start with the word “you”, so I replaced that with your name. That is not any attempt to disrespect. I don’t know how I can be expected to address you if you will avoid statements with “you” in it. You, pardon the expression, created that condition. I am willing to address you like normal…you know…if you are.
How can America be racist if most white people aren’t racist?
Well, a number of ways. Several of those ways have been discussed, and I would say are broadly understood. We can address them again. But, it should be understood that if someone makes an assertion, as you did, the burden of proof is yours. I don’t need to disprove an unsupported assertion. The unsupported assertion is stillborn and inert.
Now, as to how a society can be perceived as racist without a majority of white people being racist, for starters, structural racist practices can accomplish that. Disparities in outcomes from income, life expectancy, contact with criminal justice, etc can all give that indication. The thing is, those do not require a majority of any group to accomplish that. Also, the way a society is structurally racist is different from how an individual is racist. Although societies are made up of people, the function of a society and the function (conduct) of a person, are very different.
And to keep this brief, your question, which attempts to be an answer, relies on an assumption. The assumption is a hole in the assertion. To illustrate that assumption, lets use lung cancer as an example. Let’s say a patient has cancer in one lung. Can it be assumed that there is cancer in the second lung? No. Can it be assumed that the cancer in one lung has spread to the entire single lung? No. When it can be managed, a surgeon will remove the cancer from the spot where it exists, often leaving most of the lung that had the cancer in it. A pathogen in part of a tissue does not, by necessity, mean that the pathogen has spread to the entire organ, much less to the entire body.
That portion about cancer was to explain to you, in a manner analogous to racism (pathogen), within society (organ/body), that racism can exist to the detriment of the entire body, without actually being present in all of the body. To declare other tissue to be cancerous, more evidence is needed. Also, it is important to note that this analogy is not changing the subject, as you charged before. It is an analogy to show how “most” can not be assumed from “some”.
04/01/2021 @ 1:03 pm
With regard to numbers, you presented something that says, “many American voters believe American society is racist.”
This comment is to make the argument that “belief” is not useful here as anything close to evidence. There is a considerable difference between what someone believes, and what can be proved. Furthermore, the statement from the poll says, “many”, and not most. I think it can be agreed that many does not need to be most.
I will go a step further in my example.
https://news.gallup.com/poll/268205/americans-believe-god.aspx
This Gallup poll says that most Americans believe in God. It shows how that belief is declining, but presently can be characterized as most. I am agnostic on the existence of God. I think God’s existence can neither be proved nor disproved. I lean heavily toward non-existence, but the majority of Americans believe in the existence.
So, I ask you. Using your terms, belief, and most (or many), does what most Americans believe make the case that God exists? Would you actually agree conclusively that God does exist based upon the fact, as evidenced by the Gallup poll, that most Americans believe so?
04/01/2021 @ 3:10 pm
To use your terms:
Opinion does not require proof.
04/01/2021 @ 3:20 pm
No, but accusations do.
And the idea that most people think that Black people experience racism in the US does not mean that most people feel at all responsible for racism.
04/01/2021 @ 3:33 pm
Ron, a statement saying that “many American voters believe America is racist”, is not saying that “most white people are racist.” Those two evaluations or descriptions are not the same. Furthermore, a poll of how most American voters feel is further limited by “voters.”
Like Kosher said, accusations do require proof. I’ll say it differently. An accusation without proof can not stand.
04/01/2021 @ 3:56 pm
The Sagan Standard: “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”.
Hitchens’s razor: “what may be asserted without evidence, may be dismissed without evidence”.
Bitey’ s Bazooka: “dont gimme that bullshit”.
04/06/2021 @ 7:17 am
More dormitory buffoonery!?
If that’s the best you can do, you should know that it’s very
well done…
04/06/2021 @ 7:32 am
Ron, you complain about ad hominem, and then say that?
How about this? Show how you determine that “most” white people are racist. So far, you have not. Saying that it can be assumed from the fact that society is racist does not suffice. You need much more than that.
Speaking of “buffoonery”, how was your Covid shot?
04/02/2021 @ 9:51 am
Burden of proof is a pretty simple concept. It should be an even simpler concept for a lawyer. If one asserts that opinions should not necessitate burdens of proof, it follows that opinions shouldn’t be taken seriously because the standards applied to them aren’t rigorous enough for seriousness.
Using the idea that opinions should be shielded from the burden of proof is highly dangerous. The most obvious danger is in the expression of a bigoted opinion. “In my opinion, Black people are less sensitive to pain than White people are.” There is a long history, not entirely over, of doctors and other medical personnel having this opinion. This opinion, spread without the burden of proof, has been terribly harmful and has led directly to inequality of care. When such an opinion is expressed, do you defend it on the grounds that it’s an opinion?
04/06/2021 @ 7:10 am
Kosh, you wish to equate the expression of racist stereotypes with the articulation of editorial opinion, be my guest.
In my view, you are clueless re the concept of ‘false equivalency’.
I once wrote that profiling is the weaponization of the stereotype.
Within the context of your construct, profiling is the expression of opinion…
04/06/2021 @ 7:28 am
Ron, you do everything wrong when it comes to clear communication of differences. First, Kosher’s motives have nothing to do with the issue. If they did, they could be shown to be false by showing how the facts make the case rather than his motives determining his tack. With regard to his motive, you show no facts.
Second, you response says nothing about burden of proof. You wont even use the phrase, and that concept is the central aspect of the disagreement. You show no facts in your accusation, and the burden of proof is yours.
You mentioned once writing about profiling being the weaponization of the stereotype. What does that have to do with anything? There, you are referring to yourself rather than the elements of the issue. If that writing has facts that supply support for your argument, present them. We all know that it doesn’t, though.
Finally, you use “false equivalency” as a dodge quite often. You never once say how the equivalency you decry is false. Merely saying that it is false does not make your point. Show some facts that support how it is a false equivalency. And just for the record, his statement is not a false equivalency. “Opinion spread without the burden of proof”…can be harmful. That statement is perfectly valid, and perfectly analogous.
Try addressing the burden of proof question. Why wont you show proof? Frankly, that settles it.
04/06/2021 @ 7:41 am
Here’s the deal:
Whether it’s most, some,or all, what difference did it make to George Floyd at the moment Chauvin placed his knee on George Floyd’s neck?
As a matter of fact, what difference did it make to Derek Chauvin at the moment he decided to place his knee on George Floyd’s neck?
At the end of the day, your quibbling over semantics and syntax matters not one whit to the victims of the institutional and systemic racism that is manifest in the seemingly endless stream of incidents which involves white cops killing unarmed black people.
The truly sad part of this is that it doesn’t matter to the perpetrators and perpetuators of the atrocities either…
04/06/2021 @ 7:57 am
Ron, you’re getting lost. This doesn’t have anything to do with George Floyd, or Derek Chauvin. Your statement was that “most white people are racist.” Chauvin may or may not be a racist. All we know is that he killed a Black man. Again, this is not about him. So, don’t change the subject.
Also, this is not about policing. This is about your statement. If you don’t remember, your statement was, “most white people are racist.” The reason it matters is that if your statement were true, defeating racism is a different question relative to just some white people being racist. How one would address the issues differed significantly if it is based upon their whiteness, as you claimed, or if it is not.
Finally, this statement shows how far you are from understanding what is actually happening.
“the institutional and systemic racism that is manifest in the seemingly endless stream of incidents which involves white cops killing unarmed black people…”
The things that you claim here are directly related to how police fail to be prosecuted and convicted, but now in how they are killed. Those are two separate issues which contain a shared element. Your problem is that you can’t even discern the difference between the two. An individual cop may or may not kill someone based upon racism. And you have, and will rarely find evidence of that. You can only assume it. On the other hand, the failure to prosecute cops for killings, which appear to result from policing that has a different focus depending on race, is another.
Address yourself to burden of proof, Ron. Do you understand that the burden of proof is yours when you make an accusation?
04/06/2021 @ 1:54 pm
“This doesn’t have anything to do with George Floyd, or Derek Chauvin.”
In my opinion this has everything to do with Floyd and Chauvin.
It is your prerogative to think otherwise and express your opinion accordingly…
I said that most white folks would be OK with waking up one morning to discover that black folks no loner had the right to vote.
You and Koshersalaami twisted it into me. saying that most white people are racsts and. proceeded to run down that rabbit hole….
Nothing of substance….
Syntax and semantics….
04/06/2021 @ 7:28 pm
“You and Koshersalaami twisted it into me. saying that most white people are racsts and. proceeded to run down that rabbit hole….”
You made the comment above on this post. You are saying that you were somehow “twisted into” your statement. Below is the original statement, and the date it was made on the https://bindlesnitch.com/lbj-the-ides-of-march-and-voting-rights/ post.
This shows two things besides the fact that they are your own statements. Those things are, you draw a distinction between “some” white people as being open about racism, and “most” white people. It ends with, if any tell you that they are not racist, they are lying to you or themselves. That adds up to ALL WHITE PEOPLE, Ron. And no one “twisted” you into that. You had agreement that racism exists. You went the absurd extra step on your own.
Ron Powell
03/18/2021 @ 9:14 AM
The overt racists are a small, but growing, minority of the white folks who might be characterized as ‘racial bigots’.
Most white Americans are racists by dint of the fact that they unwittingly subscribe to the institutional and systemic racism that is percieved as the political, societal, and cultural norm in this country…
We won’t rid ourselves of the toxic and cancerous affliction of the racism that is an existential threat to the democracy unless we root it out and call it out whenever and wherever it appears and manifests itself….
White folks who choose to ignore or deny their subliminal, subconscious, unconscious, unwitting, and unintentional, racism are choosing to deny our humanity as they refuse to acknowledge and be accountable for the fact and consequences of their own racism…
As Koshersalaami has said:
“When someone White tells you that they’re not racist, it isn’t you they’re lying to.”
04/06/2021 @ 2:17 pm
Ron, you made a statement that you could not support. After that, you lack the decency, or the good sense to just admit it. You came close once by saying that it was your opinion. I agreed. I said, if you left it there, there would be no issue. Your problem is that you want it both ways.
As for “rabbit hole”, that’s just bullshit. There has been one issue the entire time. Your statement about “most white people” is unsupportable. Goodness knows you have not made any effort to support it. ‘If this doesn’t persuade you’, or whatever, is not evidence. It is bullshit. You are bull shitting. That is what bullshit is.
You literally said “most white people are racist”. If you meant something different, it is on you to say so. I dont want to “twist” that into you. Kosher does not want that twisted into you. We dont want it to be said because saying it makes everything more difficult. You said it for your own reasons. Own it. Be a man. It is a dumber statement than your bullshit about the Covid vaccines. You wont address it, but I know you have been vaccinated. You appear to be at least that sane. One of the way that you appear to have sanity is that you avoid precisely the questions that you need to avoid to avoid accountability. If you were truly nuts, you would be all over the place. You change the subject whenever you are caught, on precisely the point that you are caught on, and much later come back and try too obscure the point. This “rabbit hole” nonsense is one example. You said “most white people…”, Ron. That’s your problem.
04/06/2021 @ 5:05 pm
Ok, no Most White people are racist.
“I said that most white folks would be OK with waking up one morning to discover that black folks no longer had the right to vote.”
Even better. No ambiguity as to what racism means. This racism is very specific.
Support it. It’s your statement. So far the only support you’ve shown is what legislators have done. That does not equal public opinion. We know there’s a disconnect.
So where do you get this? Poll data where that question was asked? I’d be shocked to read that, but maybe you have a source.
Don’t tell me seventeen million years of racism. We’re not talking about that. We’re talking about a specific manifestation. Actually, you’re talking about a specific manifestation.
Support for voter suppression doesn’t even do it because no voter suppression effort out there comes close to eliminating the Black vote completely. If we demand ID’s, kill mail in voting, prohibit giving water to voters on long lines, there will still be millions of Black people who vote. In fact, I think the authors of this legislation are counting on it.
I’ll make it easier. Well, it should, but it won’t. Come up with solid evidence that the majority of White Republicans would be OK with waking up one morning to discover that Black folks no longer had the right to vote.
Burden of proof.
04/06/2021 @ 5:24 pm
The only way this has a chance to be possible is if the entire population is taken into consideration. That would include people who are not all that political. Given that, there might be a majority who are apathetic, or not sufficiently motivated to prevent or change it. But, that would not be about race. I think that tuned out group thinks the same way about climate change, fiscal policy, and factory farming. I think a huge number of people dont give much thought to anything beyond what their next meal is, and even then, only right before. That’s far from being motivated toward racism.
(And it can’t just be White Republicans).